When having money is a problem
August 12, 2019
Nicole and Maggie’s post stirred up so many feelings for me about family and money requests. My parents were able to keep a roof over our heads until about 1999, then Mom got horribly sick: diabetes, high blood pressure, TIA, early onset dementia, heart problems, severe dental problems, you name it, we had it. (A related APW post that also stirred up my blood and made me yelling NOOO)
I was already working to pay for college. That morphed into paying rent and everything else. It wasn’t easy on minimum wage, but much like that metaphorical frog, I didn’t notice because it was gradual. It started with covering part of rent one month, a utility bill another month, then a car payment, then more and more.
The money requests weren’t just from my parents. As soon as it seemed like I was flush – signaled by my paying all the household bills in full, on time which wasn’t really normal for our family circles – the requests started coming from all kinds of extended family. Word must have gotten around that I was a community bank without red tape. Wow, my naivete! For all my savvy about making and saving money, I sure didn’t have any about protecting my money from family.
Requests I’ve fielded over the past 20+ years
I was dumb and naive enough to say yes to a lot of these. Not to the MLM, property purchase, buying a house, or the illegal stuff (growing pot, selling my pain meds, signing the fraudulent documents)! I lost a lot of money but thankfully not more than I could afford even if it was painful, nor did I give up my integrity.
- To pay the rent, utility, credit card debts, personal loans (cash, cash, cash, cash).
- To buy into an MLM scheme.
- For a $5000 loan (cash).
- To co-sign a car loan (borrowing my good credit).
- To co-sign a property purchase (borrowing my good credit).
- To co-sign a rental agreement (borrowing my good credit).
- To fund a (then-illegal) pot growing operation.
- To sell my pain meds illegally.
- To buy a house for my dad to live in.
- To sign fraudulent documents (twice).
Thankfully, once I moved away, the requests from extended family stopped.
With this history, I was very careful with how I described our financial situation to other family members when cutting off Dad. Even if I only confided in a couple of aunties, I was hyperaware of the connections to the community and what had passed before. Nothing I said was untrue but I strongly emphasized our living costs and frugality, and glossed over the fact that we have savings because even NOW I feel a gush of guilt because I am absolutely prioritizing our future over his present and never mind the fact that he never once prioritized my present or future once he decided to start scamming me after Mom died. I still feel bad that I won’t let him tap into my savings even though there’s absolutely no reason to feel that guilt or to do that thing.
There’s also still a collective sense of “savings means you have money to throw away”. Because that’s extra money! The concept of saving for retirement is still very unfamiliar to that generation – our families have always relied on the support of the community (which is why his scams worked so well). They assume that when our generation ages, we’ll make it on a combination of Social Security and everyone helping each other out the way they have always done. The problem is that my generation doesn’t have that kind of closeness, and my pride would not allow me to ask anyone for help. What worked for them won’t work for us.
That old school mentality also doesn’t take into account the astronomical costs of health care here, because they assume any healthcare at all is a bonus. Compared to their home country where health care wasn’t available at all, having any access to mediocre to outright bad doctors is a step up. I suppose there’s some benefit in having excessively low expectations on that front, you live your life very much in the present. And there’s a benefit to that mentality, I’m sure. But I have no interest in living so much in the present that I and my family suffer for it several years down the road.
Thankfully, the expectations that I will give anything to bail him out, like when he finally got himself evicted, or when he wanted me to (again) sign fraudulent documents are vastly diminished. I can say no, outright, instead of forcing myself to find a way to satisfy everyone else and leaving myself disgruntled and out of pocket for the millionth time.
After two years of non contact, he’s still trying to use people to get at me, to use me, so that tells me that he’s not even starting to change.
I don’t know how I’ll feel about requests from any other family if they come. I’m not borrowing trouble, mind you, I just want to have a sense of where I stand on the matter before I have to face it. While I want to be able to be the generous family member who can easily help people out, I don’t want to be an enabler which is all I’ve been for years. I suspect it will really break down along the lines of who I’ve actively chosen to keep in my life.
On my side, I’ve been very strict about who is allowed in our lives at all, and to what degree. So if they were keepers and then needed a helping hand, likely they would get it. But it’s an automatic no to anyone who isn’t in the inner circle. That’s reasonably simple.
– I meant to add this related post from the Bitches last week: Ask the Bitches: My Dad Sucks with Money. How Do I Make Him Change?
I’ve lent money to my brother and my mother before; they’ve always paid me back and I’d lend them money as needed in a heartbeat. I was gifting a decent amount of money for my brother’s college tuition for a while, which I was happy to do since it’s helped set him up for a debt-free young professional life. As for my father, I’ve lent him money and paid him back, but he also has a history of being scammy, so it’s not something I’d do without trepidation and vetting.
I worry, on the flipside, about my in-laws and money. They’ve retired and all their lives have told their son (my husband) about how well off they were, how he could expect an inheritance, etc. The reality is that they haven’t saved nearly enough and their whole lives thought themselves “good with money” when in fact their high earner status has inflated their lifestyles, which they can’t really afford without extra income coming in. They’ve never asked us for a red cent, and still my MIL offers us gifts as the young folk starting out, but I can see it all crashing down in a few years which is scary to think about.
That was good of you to help your brother out. I hope he remembers and honors your gift.
I hope that your situation with the ILs won’t be nearly so bad as it could be (or that we can imagine!)
Oh man, that sucks. I hear you. I have a good chunk of cash savings and a few close friends know about it. It feels really weird to tell those people I can’t afford to do something when I know that THEY know that I have money in the bank. I DO have the money, I just choose not to spend it on going out drinking…or whatever they’ve invited me to.
As for family and money, I just don’t let anyone borrow money, ever. For my entire upbringing, money was always the thing that made my family (aunts and uncles, mom and dad) fight. I’ve seen/heard $20 break sibling relationships apart for months to years (utterly ridiculous).
I also just hate the feeling of being owed money by someone I care about. I used to hate that feeling that I owed money to credit cards, etc. Since getting out of debt, that feeling has morphed into hating the feeling of wondering if someone is going to pay me back, if it will break our friendship, if I will have to hound them for the money, when will they pay it back, etc. I just don’t have a lot of money to risk like that, either.
I have *given* away money, though. I could afford it, and I wanted to give it away. It was to my mom, strictly for my family’s expenses like food, medicine, gas, and she didn’t ask for it. I’ve never expected any of it back. I knew I can trust her to spend it wisely. I think my mom would be the only person in the entire world I’d ever give significant money to like that.
I hear you! It’s totally fraught. I wouldn’t offer to lend money to anyone if I didn’t know without a shadow of a doubt that they would pay it back because I’m scarred by the years of terrible. It doesn’t matter how much we have. It’s the principle and totally separate from giving which is a choice I/we make to gift without expecting or needing the money back.
I was a massive borrower-from-family once.
I had inherited a somewhat derelict property and used a 401(k) loan to pay for repairs after I was unable to get a mortgage (this was post the housing bubble collapse in 2008). Once some repairs had been completed (and time had passed), I applied for a HELOC. Then in the midst of that process, I was offered and accepted a new job, which left me with a *very* narrow window to pay off the 401(k) loan. I asked my sibling for a bridge loan so I could pay off the 401(k) while a I waited for the HELOC to be processed. Sibling, who is in an extremely high-earning field and very good-hearted, didn’t hesitate to lend me about $45,000. The HELOC went through 4-6 weeks later, and I immediately paid sibling back with interest (pro-rated).
I will always be grateful for, and warmed by, my sibling’s help. But I don’t think I would’ve been willing even to ask if I hadn’t had already had in process the means to repay the loan.
Spouse and I have also given smaller amounts — $700-$1,500 — to family and friends. We have a rough policy: we’ll make the loan if we’re liquid enough at the time, and everyone “qualifies” for about $1,000 total. We let the borrower know that if they’re unable to repay us we’re happy to consider the money a gift, but if they do repay us, we’ll have the money to lend to them again.
We’ve lent one conscientious relative the same $1,200 several times now, for things like insurance deductibles or down payments; she’s made payments as small as $10 a week, or told us she wouldn’t be able to make payments at all for a period of time, but always started up again and always paid back the full amount. Another still hasn’t paid back $700 after 10 years and has literally never mentioned it, and if we get another request, we’ll explain she has $300 left to borrow, and we hope it helps.
Does that sound unbearably smug? None of this applies in an emergency — for example, a relative without sick days or disability needed several weeks of recovery post-surgery, and we helped cover some bills for that period. But Nicole and Maggie’s point about different standards applies to us as well: in many ways, we have funds available to help because we live at a much lower material standard than the people we’re lending to.
I’d doubtless be nicer and more generous if it were possibly to analyze cause precisely: 68% of your financial instability is due to structural economic issues you can’t control, 19% is due to lack of education/understanding, and 13% is due to self-indulgence/selfishness/whatever-blaming-language-implies-lack-of-fortitude. Then I could say here’s 68% of your requested amount, I’ll give you another 19% if you read these books/blogs/articles, and you’ll have to give up manicures or pizza for a month to cover that last 13%, you spoiled little git. (Yeah, I’m not nice.) But people are complicated, damn it, and so’s money, and I have to keep reminding myself that the question isn’t if they’re “worthy” of help, but how much of my help I can comfortably offer.
On the other hand, Spouse once co-signed an education loan for a relative without consulting me, and is now emotionally scarred enough never to do so again. I am never going to assume responsibility for the entire debt of someone who doesn’t qualify to take on that debt alone. That’s not about worth or deserving: it’s about outsized risk. (It all ended without trouble, but we still get the statements *15 years* later, because the relative’s minimum payments have basically tripled the original loan amount.)
[Sorry to besiege your comments like this. I can’t manage more than two blog posts a month, but I can clutter up your real estate with multiple meandering paragraphs. Guess I like your neighborhood better than mine?]
Your multiple paragraphs are quite welcome in this neighborhood 🙂
I’ve talked about being the massive borrower a couple times and like you, it would not have happened if I didn’t know I could pay it in full within several weeks or a few months. I don’t believe in borrowing, other than our mortgage, money that I don’t have the income to pay up soon.
Your auto-qualification rule is rather brilliant, thanks for sharing! I like that it’s so sensible and takes emotion out of it, and puts the ball in their court for whether or not it’ll happen again. I might adopt something similar, if I choose to allow any loans ever again, in the future. Definitely doesn’t sound smug at all though. We are NOT rolling in cash because it came easy, it came through hard work and sacrifice and I’m not in a position to just give it away endlessly. I did that once and it cost more than money.
I also like the idea of the analysis for friends. Like your spouse, I’m scarred enough that even if I could have that analysis with family, I still wouldn’t be willing to help some of them out. Maybe that’s because I suspect that 90% of it is really selfishness and 10% is refusal to educate themselves. Like I said, scarred.
Revanche called my idea “rather brilliant”: month absolutely made. (Thank you.)
I’ve been lucky that I’ve largely been spared this in most of my adulthood. When I was in college, and just coming out of college, my dad borrowed my credit for my sister’s college loans (she never finished or really made much progress). I agreed to it only because I was naive, and my dad insisted that HE would pay it if there were any issues. I believed that was his intention, and in fact, he did pay them for years. I don’t know the current status of, and they were able to refinance and get my name off at some point (after I complained about it for a few years). I don’t think they are paid off.
He later asked to borrow it again by adding him as an authorized user on a credit card, although he didn’t intend to use it. That was back when adding someone as a user boosted their score. I said no, and I cut off the student loan thing the next time I was asked.
Other than that, family and money have thankfully been separate. I’m wondering if that will hold as my parents age.
I hope it stays separate for you going forward!
I’ve been lucky. My uncle was a drug addict, but I was too young for him to ask for money before he passed. I’m finding now, as my wealth has grown, that I feel secure enough that I want to help to other family members and friends. Charity fundraisers are a no-brainer, but also GoFundMes for random friends or friends-of-friends. It’s definitely a put-on-your-own-oxygen-mask-first sort of thing, though, and in the case of people clearly trying to take advantage (or if they’re drug addicts), probably better to avoid it.
Same, I DO want to give but not where it’s going to become a funnel to that person forevermore.
It is my friends who ask for money and they are very bad with it. It has really soiled our friendships. They are very nosey also. I keep my distance now.
Ugh, those aren’t good people to have as friends at all. I’m sorry you’ve had that experience, I hope you have better friends now.
So sorry that you have to deal with this, but it sounds like you have it handled. Agree 100% that you can’t act like a bank to your family and this could mean distancing yourself. I have been fortunate enough to have family, even extended family, that is reasonably good with money, or at least that doesn’t borrow. There is still the issue of how much to help out as the elder generations age — I’ve seen sibling relationships fall apart when they can’t agree about if/ how to help out with aging parents. We’re still working on it, and luckily have some time till primary care for an aging parent comes up.
It’s been a long learning process! I hope you’re able to have good conversations with the people who might help you manage the support so that the burden is shared more equally than it usually is.
I remember reading your post about your dad, good thing you got a good handle on it now and that you are putting that behind you.
In terms of family and money, the members of our immediately family handles their finances on their own and their is no real issue when it comes asking for money. If their is a loan between me, my brother and sister then we pay back immediately with online apps like Venmo.
Their is some family dysfunction between my mom and her sister(my auntie). I don’t know the full details but it has to do something over property ownership overseas and finances that happen over fifteen years ago. My auntie still hasn’t communicated with my mom and the rest of the family. Hopefully at some point they will talk again to resolve whatever happen.
It’s a good handle for now – but I know things may change when he ages. I don’t know what he’s going to do for care, for example.
I would say, here’s hoping your auntie can resolve things someday but I realize that from a different perspective, I am probably her. I won’t speak to my mom’s family because of how badly they treated her in the years leading up to her death and they claim that it was a money thing but wouldn’t actually tell me what the problem was, they just treated her horribly and then acted out at her funeral. So it probably looks like I won’t speak to them over money, too! And I have no desire to reconnect with them.
Ugh. It pains me to read this post. I’m sorry you have to deal with these issues with your dad. This statement stuck out from your post “The problem is that my generation doesn’t have that kind of closeness, and my pride would not allow me to ask anyone for help. What worked for them won’t work for us.” That is something I’ve never been able to put into words before. Generations change and the support of family and community is decreasing as time goes on. Savings is so important for this reason.
Thank you. We build our own new communities as family ties change, and they should change because the old structure fostered abuse, but it’s hard work.
Mixing family with money has never worked out for me, and I used to get exploited a lot. Once it was my mom bringing the whole family to visit for spring break and suddenly forgetting her credit card when it was time to pay at the resort (seriously, who drives 800 miles without their credit card on vacation?). Another time it was my mom using my identity to buy herself a car while I was in college and my mail was still going to her address. I’ve learned it’s best to love some family members from far away, which is easier than it sounds with social media now. As a principal, we don’t loan money to family anymore. We’re all adults with our own families to take care of at this point. I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences with family and finances.
Oh my goodness. After all that, yes, best to love them from far away indeed. That’s my policy. I’m glad you have the distance you need.
Hi Revanche, Thanks for this honest post. Sometimes, more money isn’t always a good thing, and this post really gives perspective on how it can change relationships. I really admire how deeply you delve into this topic and consider things from your relative’s perspectives as well. Thanks for sharing. All the best! Dragon Gal
To be honest, I have no quibble at all with having more money! But I had to learn the very hard way that when you come from a community that doesn’t have much money to go around, having money will change things and stealth wealth is the best thing for everyone.
You definitely lived the “Black Tax” experience and it can be brutal both emotionally and financially. I know it firsthand as well. Thank you for sharing your story and it’s sad how people, especially family, can feel so entitled to the money of someone else!
Very much so. Solidarity!
Thanks for the link!
Wow, that APW post gives bad advice!
This appears to be a cultural & maturity issue. That’s not say families born in the US don’t have these same kind of issues but I think it is easier to break free. There is a social stigma in the US related to a parent asking a child for financial assistance.
But in your case, it seems cultural in the sense you indicate these loan requests and related issues are common in the “old country.” It’s a maturity issues because you weren’t mature enough to say “No.” Saying “No” is a sign of maturity, self-respect and common sense. Being taken advantage of by someone is not something people with healthy self-esteem allows…even if the someone taking advantage of you is a family member.
I’m not sure how mature anyone is from ages 17-27 in general, but having a trusted adult / parent be a manipulator isn’t limited to the immature.
Many people are married and having kids by 27. Obviously, there are immature 27 year olds but by that age, one should think of oneself as an adult and be able to say “no” to manipulative family members. At age 17 you are still a minor but increasingly each year after 18, any time you are manipulated into doing something you don’t want to do, it reflects worse on you than the manipulator. You should be ashamed of being a manipulated in that fashion long before age 27. If I encountered a 27 year old who was being manipulated by their father (who had been a history of manipulation resulting in money loss) to sign “fraudulent documents” I would think “what a pathetic loser.”
You wrote “I was dumb and naive enough to say yes…” Naive is just another word for immature. This is really just a variation of a standard scam or fraudulent scheme. Most scams involve the perpetrator taking advantage of the victim’s naivete, greed, fear, ignorance, etc. The victims in most scams have some character flaw which allows them to be manipulated into being a victim.
A) Name-calling and rudeness isn’t permitted here. Further rudeness will be deleted.
B) Being married and having kids is not an indication of maturity.
C) Most scams take advantage of people, yes. That’s about the only thing you’ve got right there.
Family relationships are remarkably complex. No one handles the same situation the same way–because there are no two identical situations.
I can’t help but wonder what coming here to interject phrases like “old country” and “pathetic loser” actually accomplish. You’ve already positioned yourself as someone who clearly would never make an immature decision, so I guess we know what the alternative is…
Dear Dan,
Please ask yourself why you would respond to someone’s very personal blog post with a vicious attack and judgment. There’s no need whatsoever for anyone to behave as rudely and cruelly as you have, particularly to someone as kind and awesome as Revanche.
Sincerely,
Please don’t ever read my blog, you jerk.
My use of the phrase “old country” was erroneous. The original post used the phrase “old school” and “home country” which I misquoted as “old country.” There is nothing offensive about either phrase (home country or old country). It connotes an immigrant’s country of origin and this entire county is made up of people who can trace their origins to immigrants (Native American possibly being an exception). I absolutely do not apologize for using either phrase.
As for name calling and rudeness, I speak the truth as I see it. If it offends, that is not my purpose. My comments were far from a “vicious attack.” If we cannot have honest & uncensored dialog, then there is no point in having any dialog. As for “pathetic loser” I will admit hyperbole for the purpose of making my opinion clear. I do apologize if the author thought that “pathetic loser” was directed solely towards him.
However, the apology is for a poor choice of words as opposed to the attitude they convey. My reading of the original post is that the author was equally self-critical. His own statements make clear that he blamed himself for being manipulated. “I was dumb and naive enough to say yes…” Is “dumb and naive” more offensive than “pathetic loser?” I don’t see the distinction. Also, I would note that everyone (myself included) have been “dumb & naive” or behaved like a “pathetic loser” as some point in time. It is part of being human. Apparently, the readers of this blog feel that point in time is very recent in my regards.
I am happy that the author no longer allows himself to be manipulated by his family. I wish he would have recognized this earlier in his life so as to spare himself the additional financial & emotional damage.
You come into my internet home and refer to people who have had my specific experience pathetic losers but then claim you didn’t mean to refer to me. That simply doesn’t hold up. I don’t need to be offended to be able to identify that behavior as rude. And your poor choice of words and worse attitude didn’t just apply to me but to my many readers with similar experiences. Even if you only meant to insult them and not me, how does that make it any better?
This wasn’t “honest and uncensored dialogue”. This was you bringing an inability to see the complexity of the human experience and smugly making bombastic declarations about that which you made no attempt to understand.
Your conduct here, particularly as a newcomer, has been unacceptable and your doubling down shows you’re still not engaged in dialogue, you’re grandstanding.
[…] As we all very well know, millennials are killing everything, eating avocado toast thrice daily, and now Revanche from A Gai Shin Life has to go and kill the joy I get from having some money. I refuse to admit it, but she may have some good points in When Having Money is a Problem. […]
… speaking of immaturity… I hope you’ve blocked him! Life is too short to deal with immature trolls.
Yep 🙂